Difference between revisions of "Talk:Liquid fuel"

Latest revision as of 21:03, 1 May 2014

Jet fuel references and the "Real world equivalent" section.

The statement claiming the terms "liquid fuel" and "jet fuel" are interchangable is inaccurate and unsubstantiated. "sometimes called jet fuel" and "Because jet engines use this fuel too, it is sometimes called jet fuel" are used to back up this claim. Sometimes by who? By you? Three of your friends? This is weasel word use. Jet fuel can be a type of liquid fuel but regardless of how many people incorrectly use jet fuel in place of liquid fuel it's inaccurate and should be removed.

In the Real world equivalent section there's more weasel word use: "some compare liquid fuel to RP-1", it needs to go. RP-1 is also referenced in the same manner jet fuel was above in that it's comparable to liquid fuel. Both jet fuel and RP-1 can be types of liquid fuel, you keep referrening to them as an alternative to liquid fuel which is inaccurate.

As there is no mention of either jet fuel or RP-1 in KSP there's really no reason for these terms to appear in the article at all other than external reference links for further reading. I'll delay further editing so xZise or someone else can make a legitimate case for these statments to remain rather than provoke an edit war because the rest of what he changed/added was beneficial to the article and he should be allow to present a case. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ‎SamBanford (talk • contribs) 11:03, 11 March 2014‎ (UTC)

Hi, unfortunately I can't provide any references both claims without doing further research. But at least some indicators why I added both back in. There existed an jet fuel article, which I changed into an redirect to liquid fuel, as there is no dedicated jet fuel resource (yet). There is actually indication of jet fuel in Mk1 Fuselage - Jet Fuel.

And the RealFuels mod previously added some fuel types (with it kerosene) but some engines still wanted LF. He then said, that he wants to replace LF with kerosene (okay granted this might not be exactly RP-1, but afaik this is the most common kerosene used in rockets (at least in the US)). ([1] and [2]) Of course he is not an official spokesperson, but maybe that's why I think LF is RP-1. The previous version of RF, Modular Fuel System, also treated LF as RP-1 ([3]). — xZise [talk] 07:09, 11 March 2014 (CDT)

Heya, I'm probably fussing over something small, just thought it was misleading. You do however bring up an interesting topic, you mention the RealFuels Mod, am I wrong in interpreting this Wiki as an informational source on how to the play KSP "out of the box"? There seems to be an active effort to keep mod-based information out of this Wiki to keep it true to the stock flavor. Just looking for clarification, not a complaint one way or the other. Thanks for following up on this one. --SamBanford (talk) 12:06, 11 March 2014 (CDT)

Yes almost everything is described how KSP behaves out of the box. For example the RF mod does change the thrust behaviour (fuel flow is constant but thrust changes with I^sp) but specific impulse does only mention how the game does it. And I don't think that there is an active effort against mod-based information. For example antenna does reference RemoteTech and there are actually two tutorials about it (Tutorial:RemoteTech and Tutorial:RemoteTech2). And when Squad changed the file structure to the current GameData structure, somebody else and me, discussed how it would work if we also cover addon parts.

The main problem there is, that there are sooooo many mods that maybe most of the pages here would be about them. Keeping up with them might get difficult. — xZise [talk] 14:18, 19 March 2014 (CDT)

Unit of measurement

Changing liters to units because densities are inaccurate to volume of containers. PDS314 (talk) 14:27, 11 December 2013 (CST)

Nevermind, I was unable to edit this. Someone with more experience, please edit everything on the wiki to give accurate densities of fuel as per unit not per liter or per meter cubed. For example, all Rockomaxx or FL-T tanks store slightly over 800 kg of fuel per meter cubed, not 5000 kg as various pages on this wiki mention. The other types of tanks (ROUND-8 Toroidal, Oscar-B, all jet tanks) store at even lower densities. As proof, consider that the external volume of an X-64 Orange tank is slightly over 39,000 liters and the tank stores 32 tonnes of fuel. PDS314 (talk) 14:37, 11 December 2013 (CST)

As noted in the infobox (when you hover over the liter unit) it asumes that 1 liter == 1 unit. As ingame the unit liter never appears we can be sure in what unit they measure it. It can also be that 1 liter isn't defined as 1 dm³ in the KSP universe. Instead of applying some conversion, I would suggest dropping the unit and simply use the ingame unit like with xenon gas.

Using another value might irritate others. So when ingame a tank has a “capacity” of 1000 but here in the wiki it shows as 500 l (I don't know the conversion factor so this is only an example) others might wonder which value is correct. Also all formulas need to be updated that 1 l ≠ 1 unit and that the formulas work with units instead of liters. — xZise [talk] 16:10, 11 December 2013 (CST)

is the "unit" volumetric at all?

"jet use intake air in a volumetric mixture of 1 unit of liquid fuel per 15 units of intake air. Because all three resources have the same density the volumetric ratio is also the mass ratio." - so the density of the air is 5 tons per cubic meter! It is not bad from a gas!— Preceding unsigned comment added by NWM (talk • contribs) 15:03, 1 May 2014‎ (UTC)

Now there is no real evidence, but in the resource definition is the value given as density. This let's at least me assume it the mass per volume and thus the unit in the resource meter is a volume. Of course there are other densities in physics (e.g. energy density), but they are usually not making sense. Okay the density values itself don't make sense either.

But the main thing is to name both mixture types. In KSP (currently) this is not that important because your mixtures are usually of resources with the same density, but as soon as you have for example RealFuels or so those aren't matching up. And although it might be superfluous to talk about both mixture ratios, I used that to increase the attention about that aspect. So if Squad decides to have mixtures where there is a difference between mass ratio and volumetric ratio, this article has it covered. It also makes sure that it's not ambiguous.

If you have a better idea of what they might talk let us know. In fact this oddity could be noted in the intake air article. — xZise [talk] 10:53, 1 May 2014 (CDT)

1 unit of L.Fuel is not litre. By density (if we accept 1 mass unit is 1 metric tonne) ~5l, by the linear dimensions ~2l

1 unit of monopropellant 1 unit of xenon, 1 unit of air, 1 unit of e.charge, each case the 1 unit is different value

- maybe in the wiki it should be signed with different name of those units avoiding the [(mass/volume) of air =(mass/volume) of oxidizer and liquid fuel] statements maybe like this:

1: unit (of oxidizer, liquid fuel, monopropellant) =>1 jar

1: unit of liquid xenon (as stored) => 1 cup

1: unit of air (gas) => 1 closet

1: unit of electric charge => 1 buzz— Preceding unsigned comment added by NWM (talk • contribs) 18:41, 1 May 2014‎ (UTC)

As I said above: Other units might confuse others, especially when we start making up units. I can understand why it's weird that the fuel and air have the same densities. If you want to fix that you need different units for oxidizer and liquid fuel, because I don't know of a oxidizer which has the same density as the fuel. There is also a semi informal unit for electric charge called E or e. Maybe it's possible to determine which unit it is using for intake air, because intakes have an intake area and when you right click on it you have an airspeed. With a (modded tank) it might be possible to measure the volume.

And please sign your posts. — xZise [talk] 16:03, 1 May 2014 (CDT)